ISSUE 01
Ride Your Horse
The reasoning for doing Woon is beyond all that. It’s not just for my mom, it’s also for myself and self-discovery and reflection. It’s this crossroads that I had to deal with and I finally figured it out by building this place.
KENNY
This is something that we talk about a lot, which is Woon not even as a restaurant but as a gathering space. Because Woon, of course, is a restaurant in function but I think so much of it is about playing with the idea of a restaurant and using a restaurant as a sort of container for something else.
And I think it’s always really obvious when you come for a pop-up because it always still feels like Woon. And I think that’s when it really becomes clear if you’re paying attention to what you’re doing with this that it’s about more than the food—even though the food is important. I feel like your approach to Woon is kind of experimental in a way of figuring out what Woon is and what the boundaries of it are.
And taking a step back, the thing that I’m interested in in this moment is what’s happening as a result of the pandemic pushing people into the food world that weren’t necessarily in it. And I think it sort of plays with the rules of what you think a restaurant is and the approach to what you’re doing with the space and what your goals are in having a restaurant in general.
And this space is very specific to your story and your mom’s story, obviously, but I guess the thing I wanted to dive into is—
KEEGAN
Woon as like a gathering space—how that came to be, why that is?
I mean a lot of it is really natural, right? It all ties back to my upbringing and living in a home where my mom always welcomed people in. It’s like the very generic answer, but that’s how she got her name Mama Fong—because all my friends called her “Mama.” Because she would just invite people over, everyone would come over, and she just loved to host—no matter who it was. Whether it was my stoned-ass friends or my drunk-ass friends, they loved the fact that she was always nurturing them or hosting them, you know what I mean?
Maybe it’s a form of, like, getting attention but I think it’s probably more so the idea of taking care of people and just feeling good about making people happy. I think that’s probably the biggest thing that I learned from my mom. Growing up in that space, I was the house where we held kickbacks, you know what I mean? My mom allowed us to do those things as high school kids and all my friends would come over and we’d be the hangout spot. And I loved that. I loved having my friends around, I loved having fun, and it was under our roof and our four walls and that’s where we had the most amount of fun.
And I think moving on from that, after high school, I think college is where it was a transition period because it was kind of difficult. I wasn’t able to do that anymore. I wasn’t able to essentially host friends—in the beginning at least. Because A, I went to a majority very white school so they wouldn’t understand what I was doing to host, they wouldn’t understand Chinese food—they wouldn’t understand that.
But also it was such a weird transition going from a place where everyone felt like family to a place where you don’t know anyone. But as college progressed later in the years, I felt more comfortable and invited my mom over and my mom would host all my friends. And it kind of felt like that was happening again. Whenever my mom came into town, she’d cook for everyone. We’d do Korean BBQ, she’d do the Woon noodles, we’d do all that stuff. We’d party, she’d party with us. It was just one of those things where it’s like, okay, this feels like home again. And I think that’s what I realized was missing in college was that aspect in my life. Not only is it having access to really good food and Chinese food, but also access to being able to entertain people.
So I think after college, there was still that longing to always entertain. I always loved the idea of people hosting private pop-up dinners. It sounded so fun to me. But I was never a part of those things. I was always just head-down working, working in random industries. But luckily I ended up at a company where we threw parties. We were pretty much like a punk-surf-skate apparel brand, and I was in charge of events with $300 budgets. And it’s like, okay, we’re throwing the biggest rager in Venice—let’s figure it out. So that’s when I’d start inviting—or we’d get different artists to participate—and start inviting different bands that I was into or that my friends were into, and then all my friends would come. Essentially, I’d be throwing a party for Venice, CA and it’d be really fun. We’d premiere films and all that stuff. And I think just the aspect of hosting people and seeing people have fun tied back to my upbringing.
And fast forward to Woon, that’s the space I want to create. It’s very lame to say but this is a representation of my home and my home growing up. And that’s why we always fill it with stuff that reminds me of my home now, but also my home growing up. And I think I’ve always had that very open-arms, open door policy, and my family does—sometimes to a fault. Like I think my mom just walked into my house today cause she’s like, “Hey I need to grab those mooncakes.” I was like, "Alright well I’m leaving." And she was like, “Okay, I’ll help myself.” But that’s how I grew up—a very open door policy.
And I think a lot of times, people who don’t understand that, they’re like, “Why do you let people just use your kitchen?” Like, “Why do you let people shine inside your restaurant? This should be your restaurant, why are you letting other people get the limelight?” And I’m always like, what? That’s not what it’s about.
KENNY
As far as pop-ups?
KEEGAN
Yeah, as far as pop-ups and events go, that’s not what it’s about. It’s about being able to, I think, host. Just play host. And for me, the pop-ups are not only an enjoyment to see customers having a good time, but I think it’s also fun seeing the pop-ups have a good time. And I feed off of that energy too.
I think Sandy was a great example of a recent one that just felt really good because she was so excited and nervous to see all these faces come into a physical space for her food. And for me, I was like, that’s awesome—you know what I mean? We’re not making much money off of this stuff. Actually, I’m not making any money off of it, but I think it’s just a matter of being able to host people and letting people have their own voice within our space because that’s how we started. We were a pop-up. We used other kitchens. It’s just a way to—I sympathize with them. It’s not easy being a pop-up.
And also, I think it just brings random people together. It’s pretty crazy to see different parts of the community coming together. It’s not just the same Woon customer. It’s like the Woon customer plus Sandy’s customer, or the pop-up’s customer. And you bring those two together and you’re like, damn this is crazy. Everyone is here for one single thing and it’s pretty fun.
KENNY
I guess first to the pop-up point, that I think—shit, I lost my train of thought. What was the last thing you said?
KEEGAN
I don’t even know. I said, bringing people of different communities—
KENNY
Yes. I think that’s part of why I view, why so many people view Woon as a gathering space too. Because one, I think that informs how you approach Woon as a restaurant. But I think with your story and what the food is here, which is like a way to get people in the door to experience this—I think when you think about Woon in that way and not purely as a straightforward restaurant, it’s like, you can’t put a rating on that food, you know what I mean? If you approach it as going over to your friend’s house, or going over to whatever your neighborhood spot—
KEEGAN
It’s an experience.
KENNY
Yeah. And I think that vibe is what fuels those pop-ups too.
KEEGAN
A hundred percent.
KENNY
When there are other people who are cooking the food, you’re still the ones hosting it. And I think that makes the people that those pop-ups bring—even though I’m sure there are the people who will say as a result of that crowd, you know, “Woon is for white people” because it’s not just an Asian crowd.
But I think that’s—I’ve always told you this—but I think that’s the value of what you’re doing here at Woon and especially in those pop-ups. That it’s placing—this is front and center what your story is and what your upbringing is, and I think it’s making this sort of not just an Asian American story but just an expression of an American upbringing and what your story is.
KEEGAN
A hundred percent. We’re exposing that community to something they’ve never experienced before. And I think—I guess it goes both ways—for Asians too, they’ve probably never experienced Asian food in this context either. But I think it’s a little trickier on that side of things because they’re gonna take their very personal experiences and compare it. You know what I mean? And that’s where it gets a little iffy because half that population is like, “This isn’t how I experienced it growing up, so therefore, this place sucks.” But half of it might be like, “Wow, this is a new way to experience a similar upbringing from myself, so I identify with it.”
And then there’s the whole population of like “the white people” who are like, this is an entirely new experience so I’m gonna be open to it. And it’s up to your interpretation from there. But I think for me, I always use the term, I’m the “gateway” for Chinese food. Or Asian food. Hopefully those people come to us, and then after that they move towards all the other stuff that they can dig deeper to discover more. I think we’re kind of creating that environment where it feels like it identifies with a lot of different types of people, not just one particular group.
KENNY
While still centering—you know, I think that’s the role that the food plays of centering it in that Asianness. But everything else—yes there’s furniture, but I think everything else is an expression of you and maybe it’s not overt all the time, but I think what you are and have been pushing at is that idea of what is considered an American story.
And I think a lot of what you just said both within the Asian community and just as a general understanding of Woon—and I think you do a great job of telling your story—but I think if you come here and just experience it once, I think a lot of that thing that’s in people’s minds of what Woon is, I think, is sort of stuck in a place in that people have never seen a Chinese restaurant as a creative space.
And I think that’s really kind of what I was saying about why it’s exciting to be in a place where other people are coming to food and coming to an approach to restaurants not through that Michelin white tablecloth lens that—it’s been happening for a while, but the pandemic did kind of burst something open too. And I know you all opened before that, so it’s not—
KEEGAN
No, I think you’re hitting it on the head. Like, the reason for—growing up, I always wanted to start a brand. And I always thought it was gonna be based in apparel, in fashion, because that’s the industry I was involved in. But as time went on, I started to think about, like, what’s the most authentic way to start a brand? And it’s the food. It’s always been about food for me and my mom. And all these other things can happen as long as everything ties back to the food. That’s where it starts. That’s where the conversation starts. “Hey, I’m hungry, let’s meet at Woon for food.” But if I do want to experience a little more beyond the food, it’s all here for you. There’s merch, there’s the home goods, there’s content online where you can learn a little more. But the glue that holds it together is always gonna be my mom’s cooking.
KENNY
Because it’s rooted in your story.
KEEGAN
Yeah. There was another point you brought up. What was the last thing you said?
KENNY
Chinese restaurant as a creative space?
KEEGAN
There was something else…
KENNY
Uh…
KEEGAN
I had a point. That was the first part of the point. The second part was…I forgot. It’ll come back to me.
KENNY
I forgot too.
KEEGAN
You started with Chinese restaurant as a creative space, which is very interesting. Anyways, we’ll get back to that. Dang, I forgot.
KENNY
Will we? Now I wanna remember.
KEEGAN
No, I’ll find it.
KENNY
Okay. But as I’ve been thinking about this, about Woon, and just things in general, I think a lot in the conversations around second gen restaurants, all those things we’ve been talking about, I do think the Chinese restaurant as a creative space—
KEEGAN
I remember.
KENNY
—for, I think even more so for Asian Americans, is the thing that can make certain people write off Woon as not authentic because it’s like, why is there music that I like playing here? And to me, that idea is what needs to change. What is that idea of, like according to who that that isn’t and since when—
KEEGAN
That it has to be a certain way.
KENNY
Yeah, at a certain point that needs to be able to shift in the people that are running those businesses. It’s not going to sound and look like restaurants from 30 years ago. You shouldn’t—
KEEGAN
Yeah, am I supposed to have red lanterns and Chinese music playing? You know what I mean?
KENNY
Totally.
KEEGAN
I think the customer that understands it the most—it’s hilarious. There’s this fuckin’ 70-year-old dude named Bob*. He comes in here all the time. He’s very annoying. He gets his car fixed next door. He’s a Historic Filipinotown local. He’s this white guy, he’s an attorney. He studied Chinese history in college so he’s obsessed with Chinese culture. He’s come in here plenty of times. He’ll chat my ear off. He speaks a little bit of Chinese. When I had the Mao Zedong posters in the bathroom, he would bug me about those all the time.
KENNY
Would he eat?
KEEGAN
He eats either a bowl of ice cream, an order of fishcakes, or a bowl of noodles. Depends on his mood.
But he actually understands Woon the most. He always stops me. He goes, “Keegan, come here. You know, I just love this place.” He’s like, “I think the number one thing I appreciate the most is the music you play. You’re serving your mom’s food but you’re playing the music that you like. That’s very representative of just you as an Asian American.” And he’s like, “And I get that.”
I’m like, you’re a fucking 70-something year-old white guy and you get this. You get like everything in here. And the decor—he’s like, blah blah blah, “I understand all of it.” I remember one day he explained it and I was like, you are so annoying but at the same time, you’re hitting it on the head. That’s crazy that this guy understands it. But I think a lot of other people don’t.
I think now they’re starting to, and I’m seeing other restaurants start doing the same thing and that’s great that that can happen. And I think a lot of it has to do, too, that I didn’t start out in this industry. I came as an outsider. So it was kind of like the wild wild west for me. Whereas other people probably, if you’re from this industry, you feel like you have to do things a certain way. And I think you’re kind of bound by this box. Whereas I came in and I had to build the box.
KENNY
Right.
KEEGAN
This very blurry box.
I remember my point from the other thing is when you brought up the Michelin star restaurant mentality. I think that’s what bugs me the most. I think a lot of food media is just bound by the box. And I think they’re all trying to go beyond it, but it’s harder to go—I don’t know, it just feels very inauthentic sometimes.
I actually like that Bill Addison did a write-up on Lasita. Because he wrote about stuff beyond the food like the environment that they create, which I think is cool. And Anajak got Restaurant of the Year. I think there’s kind of starting to be this movement that’s more about the story. I think before, they kind of lost sight of the story and the experience. It’s always just about like how fancy the food is and—
KENNY
I could talk about food media being in a box for forever.
KEEGAN
Yeah, we don’t have to get into it.
KENNY
But I’m interested in seeing what you can do to push the platforms.
KEEGAN
Jean, who wrote the story about us for the LA Times—I think the story she was putting together was really cool. It was about people who built restaurants for their parents. That’s what I want to read about, like about other restaurants. I’m so sick of reading about like—
KENNY
Restaurant reviews.
KEEGAN
Yeah, like oh the fuckin’ chef sourced this thing from here and it was [noise] and the way it was plated is beautif—like, I don’t give a shit. Tell me about like why did the restaurant start, where does this food come from. Like is it just because they hired a chef and that’s what the chef likes to cook? That’s fine, that’s what restaurants are, there’s people that create food that tastes good. But you don’t need to write about it just to write about it. Like why don’t you figure out other things to write about that are interesting?
KENNY
Because that’s what happens when places decide content based on algorithms of what's already there. But I think to your point, it takes being able to step outside of that and see above that and go in a different direction. Everyone talks about J Gold but when he was doing his thing in the beginning, that wasn’t the thing to do.
KEEGAN
Totally. And I think that’s the difference.
KENNY
And I think the thing that is interesting in sort of the food industry changing is that some of the ways that those stories are framed feel like they’re shifting a little bit. To be a little less insider-y because there is a more general audience and because the coverage of food is commercialized—
KEEGAN
Yeah, it’s having a moment.
KENNY
—that I think it does just by necessity have to be more general. And I think just from a storytelling perspective, that makes restaurant stories, in my opinion, based less in the industry and more in just storytelling.
KEEGAN
A hundred percent. I mean I think that’s why I try as hard as I can to write our own story if that makes sense.
KENNY
Yeah, for sure.
KEEGAN
I just think that’s the whole point of Woon to tell that story and keep that story going through the food and through my mom.
Sorry I went on a tangent on food media.
KENNY
No, I didn’t want to lose that thought. But I think you were talking about Joe? Right? Is his name Joe?
KEEGAN
Bob*
KENNY
Bob*. I think that is a really funny story and imagine because it’s like—what was that show where God speaks through people?
KEEGAN
Oh, yeah yeah yeah.
KENNY
Joan of Arcadia. I feel like it’s one of those moments where it’s this weird container of a person like an old white dude who’s expressing back exactly what I’m trying to do.
KEEGAN
Totally.
KENNY
And I think that’s one of those moments where it’s a sign of like, oh this is—I am doing this if it’s reaching this person. And it’s not that it’s all for older white dudes, but I think if your story and your intention can be—
KEEGAN
Identified by someone like that.
KENNY
Understood by someone like that, yeah. That’s one of those moments of like, okay, I got out of what I was doing to tell a specific story based on my life and I think to have that reflected back to you is just one of those moments to pay attention to.
KEEGAN
Totally. And I think it’s really cool that—I always pride ourselves on the fact that an old white guy named Bob* who’s an attorney and gets his car fixed next door is actually a regular. You know what I mean? Like this story spans not just one generation, it spans a whole—you got this old, single white guy. And you have like, yourself, who—same generation, Asian American, who can identify with it. And then you have like, Silver Lake hipster dudes that are hungover from partying the night before cruising in for noodles. I just think that’s really cool and funny and so interesting about restaurants in general.
I think that’s the first thing I noticed when I got into this industry. Like wow, you can touch a lot more people than just a surf brand based out of Orange County that’s made for 20 to 30-year-olds. It’s such a broader audience.
KENNY
Because of food.
KEEGAN
Because of food. Your story just goes much further rather than having to make up little stories for like 20 to 30-year-old white kids in Orange County. You know what I mean? It just gets very specific.
And I think that’s one thing I was very proud of when opening this restaurant. Like, cool, I can chat with this family who’s from Minnesota visiting LA about Chinese food and what our story is, and I can go chat with like—who’s now my friend—Rosanna from Canada and grew up eating Chinese food and now is in LA and is a photographer. And she’s like, I really identify with this. And I think that’s pretty cool.
KENNY
I think it’s cause you start off with food as that starting point, it’s an easier way in than—
KEEGAN
I mean that’s another reason why when we first opened I intentionally didn’t do any delivery. Like I didn’t sign up with any delivery platform for the first three to six months? I think it was six months. Because I wanted people to come here first. I wanted them to come in and experience it for themselves first. I didn’t want them to judge it based off of strictly the food. I want them to absorb all this and interpret it on their own—again, having this specific food inside this specific environment. And I want them to put the pieces together themselves, not necessarily just get one piece and never have the rest of it. So I think that was a big intention in the beginning to avoid delivery.
KENNY
That’s interesting to think about. I’m just thinking about the experience of Woon as takeout. It’s obviously different but I also have an established—
KEEGAN
You have context.
KENNY
Yeah. But that makes a lot of sense just for the experience of coming here for the first time.
I was interested in kind of digging into that idea of a Chinese restaurant as a creative space because I think, you know, every restaurant can have a bad night. Every restaurant does. And I think what Woon opens itself up to when there is a bad night is immediately writing it off of like, “Oh it’s the design.” Or, “Oh, it’s the vibe.” Like, it’s not the food. Because you have so much else going for what Woon is that I think it’s both sort of a shitty thing for you as a restaurant, but also a testament to the fact that you’re giving people something that they haven’t seen and that they don’t necessarily totally grasp in the creative context of it.
And I think this place is such a—I always think of it as such a creative hub—and I think the larger misunderstanding of Woon is rooted in the idea that is sort of changing now, but of a mainstream not having a real understanding of Asian Americans as the sort of pillars in creative spaces. You know, they expect you to be hardworking, they expect you to do a good job, but they don’t necessarily expect you to be the one with the creative vision that’s leading everything.
And that’s so clearly what you have done with this space and rooted this space in and I think—you know, like I said, even when you’re out of the country it still feels like that. And I think that speaks to this space as so much more than a restaurant in a way that I think is really meaningful in a creative context that has to be read and understood outside of just a restaurant context.
KEEGAN
I can speak a lot about that. I mean, you obviously understand because you’re in the—you’re the tip of the pyramid for us, right? You’re like that customer that gets everything. And I think the hardest part is always to figure out how to move down that pyramid and get these other people to understand that as well. I’m just speaking in general as a restaurant. But when it becomes a Chinese restaurant doing those things, the pyramid gets even narrower. It’s like, okay shoot, now we gotta get these people to understand not only the story surrounding the food, but also the story behind this Chinese restaurant doing all these—creating a creative space essentially.
And I think there’s just so many pieces to the puzzle. Like there’s so many parts for Woon. And I understand that you’re that person that understands all of them but to get everyone to understand all of it is close to impossible. But I think that’s why there’s so many pieces because I’m trying to get people to understand it if they touch any of those parts.
KENNY
Yeah. Interesting.
KEEGAN
So, you know, I think some of those parts might be—I think the most obvious one would be the physical space. You come in and some might think, oh it’s just to look cute for Instagram. But if you try and dig beyond that, you start to understand that, no, this space is actually intentional in the sense that it is not only a blend of design and original antiques from my uncle—who actually is probably subconsciously a very big influence because he is a Chinese American who is like the leading antique dealer of midcentury antiques. Like who would expect that?
So I think subconsciously it’s kind of interesting because he’s lending me all this stuff that actually contributes a lot to the physical space because everyone’s like, “Wow this stuff is very impactful, where did you get it?” Or some people might think, oh you bought this online as a replica to make it feel Asian. But once you peel back that layer, you start to understand where it came from and the stories behind it, and that these things are actually real and they come from my uncle who actually studies these antiques and started his career in this.
And then it’s the same with the trinkets. I think people start to think like, oh are those just there cause it looks cool and looks Chinese? But it’s like, no my mom is actually really, really superstitious and all this stuff is for feng shui purposes and it’s actually way more annoying than anything. I’d actually prefer for them not to be there.
KENNY
Of course. In a restaurant space to arrange around. It’s one thing to be in your home but…
KEEGAN
Exactly. And I don’t know how that fits into in terms of creativity but I think it fits into the conversation of design because there’s intention. And I could go on and on about the physical space and the art and how friends contribute. But so that’s one piece that that person has to touch and start to understand as Woon as a creative space.
But I think there’s the other ones—like Instagram is the next most obvious one, right? It’s like what we put out to the world. I think it’s essentially a creative platform for us to communicate to other people and for them to interpret it the way they want.
And then I think delivery is a big one. It’s like, that is another avenue for us to introduce Woon to people.
KENNY
Delivery as far as your pantry products?
KEEGAN
Not even that. I mean, that’s a whole other thing. I think delivery of food. Just the aspect of like the sticker that we put on there. I think that speaks to a lot. Like, hey this is—that sticker is actually a piece of art that my friend made. And yeah we happen to be a Chinese restaurant and you’re getting an illustration on your food container, you know what I mean?
And then the pantry goods, and then the merchandise—
KENNY
And before I lose the thought, how that illustration plays off of the classic takeout box too.
KEEGAN
Yeah, exactly. And I think that stuff that is obviously very subconscious to me, but now that I’m talking about it, there’s intention there. And I think all of it is to get people to understand Woon as a creative space. And opening it up too to allow others to exercise their creativity within it, I think, is a huge part of it.
KENNY
I mean, I think that’s what you’re doing. But I think even to the point of this as a space that, maybe yeah, not every person will be able to verbalize and identify each part of what each thing means, but I think that all kind of goes into the space. This space is so subconsciously you and I think part of—I believe in energy in spaces, of just a vibe and a feeling. And I don’t mean a vibe, but I think when people come here, whether they know it or not, a lot of that is in what this space is. It’s creativity mixed with family tradition mixed with just growing up now and being you that I think a lot of that does seep into the space. Even the annoying feng shui stuff. You get a feeling when you come here, you know?
KEEGAN
Yeah. It starts with it being very personal, obviously. I take it very personally. It’s hard not to. But on the flipside of that, you have to make sure that—you know, I think this is one of our core values that we always go back to. We do have a list of core values that I try to revisit every now and then to remind myself. If there’s big decisions down the road to be made, go back to those and make sure it fits into those core values. And this is to the credit of my old business partner at the time, Michael. He was like, this is gonna be the thing you look back to the most.
KENNY
You had a business partner when you started Woon?
KEEGAN
Yeah, and he’s still like a silent partner. He’s Taiwanese. He’s at Columbia now. He decided to go back to school.
But I think one of them is—I forget, but the core value is something about authenticity and things being comfortable. And I think those two tie together because it must be authentic to yourself and also it has to be comfortable. Like every decision you make has to be comfortable. Whether it is the physical feeling of being comfortable or hypothetically, like are we gonna be comfortable after this? Or is this gonna cause tension?
KENNY
Amongst the staff? Or—
KEEGAN
In general. It could be amongst staff but personally is it gonna cause tension down the road. Like am I gonna feel anxiety about it? But I think speaking specifically to the space, we had to make sure everything had the criteria of like, it’s authentic to the story and it has to feel comfortable. And I think if you start off there, then everything else will fall into place.
But I think a lot of places don’t understand that. They sometimes hire a company and they’re just like, I just want it to look cool. Or I want it to look like this. But how is it authentic to your story? And maybe it’ll feel comfortable because there’s nice cushions but it’s a different type of comfort.
KENNY
Yeah. And it’s just a different mindset as an approach to your restaurant when you’re viewing it as this separate business thing that’s there to serve your food ultimately that I think you don’t think about how to thread your story through.
KEEGAN
And I think that might be where my animosity comes from with food media sometimes. I think that’s what it ties back to because I’m not gonna name any names but I’ve seen them talk about certain places and I know the actual backstory behind that place and the intentions aren’t even there. And I’m like, well why is this media writing about it when they don’t even know the real story, you know what I mean?
And I think that’s where I’m like, what the fuck? They didn’t do their homework to peel back that extra layer. And I think that’s kind of what I mean by like, this place is—you have to go beyond and it’s hard. But we try and get every angle in order for people to understand it.
KENNY
Then how do you prioritize? Or do you prioritize what you want those people moving down that pyramid to respond to?
KEEGAN
To understand? Yeah that’s interesting. I don’t really prioritize. I think I just do everything at once, you know what I mean? I try everything.
KENNY
I think those people absorb it when they come into the space. Like even if it’s not front of mind, I think all that stuff does create an experience.
KEEGAN
Yeah. And I think one thing I left out is that I think staff has a lot to do with that. Like building a team that understands the vision, A, but also feels comfortable amongst us and the family and it has to feel natural. I think for us, thankfully we’ve attracted good candidates but when we do talk to them, there has to be this authenticity, this feeling. And I think a lot of the Woon staff just kind of fits into that vibe—back to going to my mom’s house and feeling like, hey we’re all here, we’re all having fun, we’re all doing this together kind of thing. You’re not a cog in the wheel.
KENNY
Yeah. But I think that’s what I mean by it all going into the energy of the space. If you’re someone that thinks you want to work here, you probably want to work here because of what has been set up. And I think that part of it, yes, is finding good people but I think it’s also how you introduce them into what you’re doing.
I think it takes an intention from the person who’s the leader of that space. And I think you can have the most talented people, the most fun people individually, but you need a vision to tie people together. I think the intention is what brings the people here but a vision is what makes them stay.
KEEGAN
Totally. A hundred percent. It’s not easy. Dude, it’s fucking hard. I tell Jake all the time. When I brought Jake on as GM, I told him the first day, I was like, “You’re gonna have the hardest job ever.” This is somewhat related but also not because the way we approach things, or I like to approach things—every single thing is about balance. Everything is about wabi-sabi. Everything is about yin and yang. Because that’s the only way we can move forward. Once we start skewing to one side, that’s when we know we have to skew back the other way. But that’s much harder than being on either end. Being in the middle, you know what I mean? It’s harder to be balanced than either end of the spectrum.
So when I brought Jake on, I was like, it’s always about balance. You can’t get too far on the side of too much structure, and you can’t get too far on the side of like no structure. You have to be right in the middle, and that’s what Woon is. It’s this balance, and if we can maintain that balance, then that creates a better environment for everyone.
I don’t know how I got on that topic but something triggered that.
KENNY
I can’t remember what it was either. But it was on the topic.
KEEGAN
Yeah! But that goes for everything too. Physical space, like every decision, there’s always something to equal out something, you know what I mean?
Even content, like we have those Woon playlists. Maybe ten percent of people will actually pay attention to that and care about music. But we do that to balance the foodies on the other spectrum that only care about the food photos and the food content we put out. But the people that care about Woon for the other reasons are gonna get sick of it so we have to balance it with that. And it’s constantly a back and forth.
But the only place that I don’t apply balance to, and I need to, is my work-life balance.
KENNY
But what is your ideal amount of time at Woon? Because part of it is having to let go a little bit too, right?
KEEGAN
I know, it’s hard. I mean I guess it has a lot to do with, like, goals for Woon, right? And of course once you set goals, you’re gonna be working even more to achieve those goals. So I think for me, I still haven’t learned to figure it out. Because all these things I’m trying to do are just going to require more of my time. But I’m trying to figure out along the way to learn how to balance it.
Because I think the ideal goal for Woon is to share its story—this is a generic answer I’ll give you first. Sharing Woon outside of the four walls has always been my goal. I’ve always wanted this physical space that we built first to be the flagship. This is Woon in a nutshell. You get a 360 view of my upbringing, my Asian American heritage, my mom, at this space. Now how do we bring it beyond those four walls?
And I think one of them is through food delivery, which we’ve done. Now we can bring it outside to that 6 miles around us. Pantry goods have been a huge one because now we can bring it nationwide. We can share my mom’s story nationwide. Marketing is one through content that we can share globally.
And I think the next step is, how do we replicate the flagship elsewhere? Because I think the flagship is the most all-encompassing so that’s where I want a Woon #2. I want to open this retail space because that’ll be the flagship for the homestyle goods and our merch and everything.
So it’s like, how do we replicate the flagships but also maintain the story beyond the four walls?
KENNY
How much do you feel like Los Angeles is part of Woon’s story?
KEEGAN
LA is obviously a huge part of it. I could have opened Woon in San Diego cause I lived in San Diego for a long time before. But I grew up in Pasadena and I built the Woon pop-up in LA. And I just felt like, I don’t know if Woon as a pop-up could have existed anywhere outside of LA. It’s like the only city at that time that probably could understand what we were trying to do. And I always knew I wanted to open Woon in LA because it’s my home. It’s part of the story. It’s where I grew up, it’s where our core following is, it’s where all my friends are, it’s where my network is. It’s like the big part of the story happens in LA, so it had to start there.
But now that it started there, now we can replicate. I feel like we can bring that story elsewhere and tell the story of Woon and where it started but in a different place. Although our #2 is probably still gonna be in LA. But I think it could very easily exist outside of Los Angeles because I think it would just be bringing a whole new experience to those different cities. Essentially, it’s the same thing though, right? It’s the same story. It’s just gonna happen in a different place.
But yeah, LA’s huge. And sometimes I think it’s a blessing and a curse. It’s a blessing because people are more open to understanding it because all the aspects of it are very hard to grasp if you’re outside of a place that’s as eclectic as LA, you know what I mean? But at the same time, it’s a curse because so much stuff does exist in LA, there’s just so many more people to criticize it as well.
KENNY
Yeah, especially in the food world. There are a lot of food media eyes on things here.
KEEGAN
Yeah, and also I always go back to our worst Yelp reviews are from Asian people from San Gabriel Valley that don’t want to understand this version of Chinese food experience. They’re our biggest criticizers.
KENNY
And again, I think it’s the value of the work that you’re doing here but it really is I think just—there’s no place to understand a Chinese restaurant as a source of creativity. And I think there are influences and people influence each other, and sure, there are versions of that but to me, it feels very specific.
And I think as we’re in this point of AAPI whatever place that we’re in after the last couple of years, I’ve been more interested in the idea of, you know, before there were none of our stories out there. Then all of a sudden there were all of these stories. And certain narratives get pushed of like, I don’t know, your parents who cut up fruit for you and the nightmare lunchtime stories that like, sure I guess but I am also interested in pushing out at—that there are different stories, you know? I understand the lunchtime story just as a generality but that wasn’t necessarily my story. My friends liked my lunches, you know?
KEEGAN
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re talking about like the smelly lunch story.
KENNY
Yeah, essentially. And like the shame associated with that. And I get it, but my point is that I’ve been more interested in letting people tell their version of stories that don’t have to fit into what mine was. And I think on the flipside of that, I’m also interested in being aware of the stories that are now being pushed and sort of dirtying them up a little bit, of not making them so clean.
KEEGAN
Yeah. I think that’s a really good point. I think AAPI, the whole movement—I mean, I’m thankful it happened because honestly it helped me self-discover.
KENNY
For sure.
KEEGAN
I think pre- the whole AAPI movement, I still felt like I had to say certain things as a Chinese restaurant. Like I still felt like I had to tell the story within a certain means, if that makes sense.
KENNY
Yeah.
KEEGAN
Because I had to dumb it down in order for that broader audience that I’m talking about to understand because it was like—I think now I’m able to open up way more about it but I think if I had done that before, I always felt like people would not want to hear it. You know what I mean? I think the general public would be like—I mean, this is just myself thinking that, they probably would want to hear it—but I think I was a little too hesitant to tell the complete story if that makes sense.
KENNY
Of course. Yeah.
KEEGAN
And so I think I always made it about like, it’s my mom’s food. It’s my mom, it’s her food, it’s what I grew up with. And that’s kind of like end of story.
But then now, I’m able to speak beyond that because the whole AAPI movement has kind of given us that voice. And given us the opportunity to actually dig deeper. It’s beyond all that. The reasoning for doing Woon is beyond all that. It’s not just for my mom, it’s also for myself and self-discovery and reflection. It’s this crossroads that I had to deal with and I finally figured it out by building this place.
KENNY
Of course. Yeah, I think—I forgot my first point.
KEEGAN
Ugh!
KENNY
There were multiple things I wanted to say.
KEEGAN
Sorry I cut you off.
KENNY
No, it was in response to what you were saying.
KEEGAN
Oh. Self-discovery…?
KENNY
Oh yeah. That I think part of that for me too has been the last few years of processing it through my work. And I think a part of that is what this is too. Of like trying to understand this moment with what my experience growing up has been and how I played off of that before this and how it’s changed too. But I’m interested in sort of digging through that in public because I didn’t grow up with those stories or with creative people that I looked up to that were dealing with that work or even trying to process through that.
But that’s been the thing that I’ve found most rewarding in the last few years of being connected with other Asian American creatives that are expressing things in their work that maybe they haven’t before and it feels like a collective—you know, these are people that have been doing this work for a while but I think there’s a certain energy right now of sort of not paying attention to the rules of how that work has been told up until this point.
KEEGAN
A hundred percent. I think part of it for me at least has to do with me also getting older. And obviously I’m becoming more mature in the way I think and the way I look at things and how I got here. That’s part of it, but I think the majority is through, you know, just people talking about it. And being open to it now. And I think it’s pretty cool.
I think a lot has emerged out of it in terms of specifically creatives, and Asian American creatives, and just being comfortable knowing that, like, there’s support. You know what I mean? I think as Asian Americans—and I think this is what I was alluding to earlier about telling the story is that you get a little scared. You’re like, am I putting myself out there creatively as an Asian American, which is kind of vulnerable. You get kind of vulnerable and you get kind of scared, and you’re like, is this—are people gonna be down with this? But then now it’s like, everyone’s like, fuck it, let’s do this. Come on, like everyone, everyone, let’s do it. And I think that’s a huge thing.
KENNY
And I think I’m really interested in this moment creatively because it does push up—and I guess we talked about this in that restaurant group last year. It all feels like a blur.
KEEGAN
Dude, I forgot about that!
KENNY
Sometimes I forget that that existed.
KEEGAN
Oh my god.
KENNY
Anyway, I think a lot of—sorry, now I’m just thinking about that group. What was my point?
KEEGAN
I don’t know but now you got me thinking about another group I was in at the same time. I was in so many groups!
KENNY
The HiFi group too.
KEEGAN
Yeah, the HiFi group.
KENNY
Uh, AAPI stories. Creativity. Oh yeah, I’m interested in the moment creatively because I think it pushes up against so much of how a lot of us were culturally raised to keep your head down and do good work and work hard and don’t make much noise. But I think those stories that are coming out right now out of moving out of that, I think are really interesting. And they’re things that I haven’t personally seen before that I think that’s what I’m more interested in this moment of really digging into.
I think in the context of like, now that there’s an AAPI moment, people are gonna say that people are just getting opportunities because of whatever. But I don’t think about that. That’s something that I think has to do with unlearning certain things.
But I view it as like, yes, I don’t agree with everything that’s coming through this AAPI moment, you know. There are certain orgs and people that are not for me but what I’m interested in is allowing that to happen and focusing on what this opening is allowing for creativity and creative work.
KEEGAN
It’s kind of empowering us to embrace it. Like let’s move this forward.
KENNY
Yeah, and I think there are places that are pushing into representation in a way that that’s kind of the ceiling. And I’m not really interested in that. But I think what’s interesting—and I guess back to the point of pushing out at the stories that are being told—is that I think it feels subversive what you’re doing here in telling your story but using food, which like I was just saying so many Asian American childhood stories are like the smelly lunch story and shame around that. I think Woon is a way of sort of flipping that and finding the joy in that. And centering that food in a way that I feel like reframes maybe how you felt about it growing up. And sort of how you’ve grown as a person.
All of that story feels like within this realm of what you’ve built. That might be part of my story, but now as an adult I’m going to use those things that maybe I was navigating through as a kid and use that as the thing that you have to come through to come into this space to understand both my story, my family’s story, but also as a way of working through how you’ve evolved.
KEEGAN
A hundred percent. I mean that’s a lot to unpack, but—
KENNY
Sorry. Well is it true???
KEEGAN
It immediately makes me think about just growing up. For me personally, I was in a very unique situation growing up. It might be very different for you but I probably had it alright because San Marino is such a divided city. It’s just half white, rich conservatives. And then like half Chinese immigrants. So it’s just like, I got to experience both.
And over time, there was some animosity obviously, but more or less we coexisted. And I was kind of right in between both. Like I was straddling where those two meet all the time. And, I don’t know, while it’s happening you don’t really realize it. I actually guess I did. Because I would always be like, I’m gonna hang out with my white friends today or I’m gonna hang out with my Asian friends today. I’m gonna hang out with my in-between friends today. I had friends all over the place and I was a chameleon and kind of was able to adapt and maybe sometimes it probably would affect me in the way that I probably wasn’t able to act myself all the time because I felt like I always had to, you know—when I’m with these guys I’m gonna act this way, when I’m with these guys I’m gonna act this way. And I think slowly that just shaped me into a person that was able to get along with a broad group of people. And I think now I’m back to that crossroads where I’m a lot more comfortable with and I’m much more aware of where I stand within it.
So in a way I feel like my upbringing in San Marino was actually beneficial. Granted, I do have instances of like the smelly lunch story but it doesn’t shape our story now. I think it’s more so the fact of like, that unique existence and just me now figuring it all out like 30 years later. It’s kind of a trip to think about. I actually always wonder what San Marino would be like growing up now.
But at the same time, I had like my Chinese group of friends who were so Chinese and had housekeepers imported from China who would cook us very authentic Chinese dinners all the time. And then on the other side of it, it was like, my mom hosting Chinese dinners and us introducing Chinese food to these white conservative people. It was like bringing them into my home and showing them, but at the same time I was still going to friends’ houses who had housekeepers who were cooking us such authentic Chinese food.
Like over here I was introducing people to Chinese food that was much more approachable than that food. So it’s very interesting because I guess that’s what Woon is, that part of it. But me also knowing that this exists and having experienced that very, very authentic Chinese food.
KENNY
That all makes sense and also plays into how food is being used at Woon to bring people into the culture.
KEEGAN
Yeah, it’s kind of that gateway again. Because if they went straight to this dinner at my friend’s house where the housekeeper made all that food, they’d be like, what the fuck is this?
KENNY
As you were talking about it, I mean there are specifics that were different to our growing up, but I did at school—I guess I’ve been thinking about this narrative of like, I didn’t feel Asian enough and I didn’t feel American enough. And I just sort of absorbed that because that’s what’s been told, but the more that I think about it, I don’t know that that’s what I actually felt growing up. It was less of a choice, I think. It wasn’t a conscious choice of like, I’m going to—
KEEGAN
Yeah, yeah. It was just where you fell. It’s where you ended up.
KENNY
Yeah. At school, I did move through white spaces up through college. But at home, I was always rooted in, you know, those family dinners and Chinese New Year and having family and friends around that I don’t know that I ever felt like not enough of either, it was more just like, this is the world.
KEEGAN
This is what it is. Just go with it.
KENNY
Yeah, this is what it is. And we just have to navigate—or, it wasn’t even that conscious choice, it was more just like, I have this world at school, and I have this world at home, and it wasn’t, I don’t know—I think I’m probably still processing through that.
KEEGAN
I think same way for me. San Marino was such a comfortable environment because there was an understanding, right? And then once I went to college in San Diego where I was in the 1.3 percent Asian population, I think that’s where my eyes were like, oh fuck, this is a whole different world. Racism exists. Prejudice exists. Like I might be the first Chinese person that some of these people have actually ever hung out with.
So that’s where I was like, okay, this is a whole new world out here. It’s the wild west. And I think that’s where I realized like, oh shit, I’m a little out of place and I have to either A, assimilate or B, just kind of like disappear. So I chose to assimilate and that’s the catalyst of self-discovery now later on, you know?
KENNY
Yeah. But it’s also interesting to think about how those things guide your story, even subconsciously.
I think when you grow up in white spaces, or in spaces where you do have to navigate that, I’m still sort of learning through and unlearning certain things too. Cause I think growing up in California, it’s different than growing up in a place where there are no other Asian people.
And in my schools, there were always Asian people too, it’s just that things were segregated. And I was in this position where I was like you, straddling those two worlds. And I was always friends with other Asian people. But it’s this thing of having to unlearn sort of feeling like you have to navigate those two worlds, and feeling good about that. And having to flip that into, well what was that?
And also how do you move forward now being true to how you grew up, but also understanding that part of this moment is making choices. And thinking about your work and what it does in a bigger sense than just yourself. I think that’s a lot of what I’ve been just thinking through.
KEEGAN
Yeah. It’s a lot to think about. I’m processing that too.
Sometimes I wish I could relive my past experiences growing up. Obviously everyone does that, like knowing what you know now. But sometimes certain things, you’re just like, okay that’s why I made those decisions or that’s why I did that. Or that’s why I do this now.
KENNY
Yeah, totally. I mean, would Woon be the same if you didn’t have the upbringing you had in presenting it this way? I mean, that’s not a real question.
KEEGAN
Yeah. Of course not.
KENNY
I think it’s helpful to think about it as creatives, not in the positions of what you do. Like not as a restaurant owner or whatever it is. Because if you think of someone in the lens of like an artist, you pull from all your experiences to create this thing.
And I think because of Asian American representation or whatever, and the lack of avenues in the traditional sense of media—film and television and music and whatever else—I think it has forced and pushed people into finding their ways in different lanes. My work in arts education was for a long time my creative practice. And I think this is very clearly your lane and it’s just as creative as being a visual artist in my opinion. It’s putting work out for public consumption and I’m interested in both the ways that people have found themselves and created their own creative work outside of the avenues that weren’t really open to us, and how that’s shifting now when those avenues are opening up a little bit more.
KEEGAN
No, I think that’s a good point too. I think speaking to Woon as a creative project, it totally is that for me. I think growing up, I always knew I wanted to do something creative, I wanted something of my own, but I was never a great artist. I never immersed myself in music, like I was never a great musician but I loved good music. I loved great art, I loved fashion. There’s all these things that I liked, but it’s like, how do you mold all those together?
And it was almost frustrating at times because it was like, okay, I know how to identify these things. But how do I make it my own, you know what I mean? I can’t create any of these things myself, and I think bringing it back to food, that created all of those opportunities. Food is what created all these avenues that I wanted to be a part of. It’s weird.
KENNY
And now you’re at the center of it. I think of collaborations like this shirt with Kris Chau. It is maybe a different path to being in that creative community but you’re at the center of it with what you’re doing with Woon. Was that always a conscious choice in the beginning? Of finding creative collaborators?
KEEGAN
I mean, yeah, it actually was. If you go back to the business plan, I had to make like a fake marketing plan cause I had to look like I knew what I was doing. So I created a marketing calendar—like a strategy tree. It was like, every quarter we’re gonna feature this artist, and every month we’re gonna feature this photographer, and every week we’re gonna feature this playlist.
That was very conscious because I knew those were things that I was interested in, but I didn’t know to what extent or how they would weave into the story. And I think that’s all kind of come naturally as time has gone on. But I knew that I wanted all of these pieces to be a part of it, I just didn’t know to what extent and how to put it together. And I think now it’s kind of slowly falling into place, and hopefully it’ll continue.
How long have we been talking?
KENNY
An hour and 20 minutes.
KEEGAN
Wow, it did not feel that way.
KENNY
And that was the end of the first question.
KEEGAN
😳😳😳
KENNY
No, I’m joking.
My second question is…
KEEGAN
😂😂😂
KENNY
No, I think thinking about this space and thinking about what I know about Woon and what you’ve shared too, how much of opening this space or transitioning into a restaurant space felt like you were walking into some sort of family history?
Because one, I think with your uncle with sort of the antique feeling of the space mixed with more modern furniture, but also the history of your family with Joyce Chen, too—who was your great-aunt?
KEEGAN
My mom’s aunt. Great-aunt. No, my mom’s—some aunt. It’s her aunt.
KENNY
I mean I think it’s just interesting to trace that—of her being the first, not even Asian, just woman of color on national television cooking for that short period. And what she was doing in making sort of “not authentic” Chinese food for the masses.
It’s just interesting to think about—I don’t know, in the last few years, I’ve been thinking more about our bloodline and our ancestors and things that you can’t really explain.
KEEGAN
Yeah. I mean Woon is kind of a nod to obviously my mom, but I think my family in the sense of her journey to here. A lot of it has to do with assimilation. She came here having to assimilate. My grandma was just feeding her all this white food and pot pies and shit. And frozen food. It was like, we have to be American, we have to be white.
And my mom was like, well I miss the Chinese food so I want to figure out how to cook it on my own so that we can enjoy it again because mom, you’re a terrible cook. So it’s my mom kind of balancing that, figuring out the traditional recipes and also figuring out how to assimilate them so that they can be a little bit American. And funny enough, she’s discovering, oh Joyce Chen, my aunt, was doing the same thing.
But it was also my mom kind of tweaking—finding those recipes like Joyce’s that are very Americanized and sweet and sugary, and my mom actually not liking those parts of it and trying to figure out ways to make it less so. So essentially making it more traditional, which is pretty funny. In her own way, figuring out how to make it more traditional.
So it’s just funny how Joyce who’s the pioneer is like, the only way to introduce Chinese food is to assimilate it and make it more American. And then here’s my mom taking that and un-Americanizing it.
KENNY
That circle.
KEEGAN
Mm hmm.
KENNY
That’s super interesting.
KEEGAN
But yeah, the photo on that wall is pretty cool. It’s their first Thanksgiving in America, and you know, them living the American Dream.
You know, I talk about my mom a lot, but on my dad’s side, my grandma—well, her first job was a housekeeper, but her first business was a Chinese restaurant. She had a very successful Chinese restaurant in Boston. And that’s kind of where Joyce Chen was too, which is funny. But her story—she was making Chinese food for a very, very white community. And it’s pretty interesting that I’ve done the same thing essentially, but years later.
And I think some days it’s really surreal that I have a Chinese restaurant. I wake up and I’m like, my job is to run a Chinese restaurant. And I kind of laugh at it, but I’m also at the same time kind of proud of it. Cause it’s like, this represents my family. This represents my last name. And I think that’s pretty cool sometimes.
KENNY
And part of that too is like your own conceptions of Chinese restaurants growing up. And having to wrap your head around that too.
KEEGAN
Yeah, I think it’s really funny in that sense. I think we’re kind of redefining what a Chinese restaurant can be and what it means. It’s just, I laugh at the fact that when I meet new people, and they’re like, “Oh what do you do?” And I’m like, oh I own a restaurant. “Oh, what do you own?” I own a Chinese restaurant. And then they’re like, “Oh, interesting! Cool!” But their perception, immediately, is probably like, you own a fuckin’ Panda Express buffet? Or like, a dim sum spot?
And then I have to explain. Sometimes I just don’t even explain. I’m just like, “Yeah, I own a Chinese restaurant. It’s my mom’s recipes. The end.” Or I’m like, “It’s like a contemporary version of a Chinese restaurant, it’s like modernized. You should come check it out. It’s in the Silver Lake area.” And they’re like, “Oh! Silver Lake!” You know what I mean? So it’s just funny how if I just—
KENNY
The questions stop.
KEEGAN
Yeah!
KENNY
Because when you hear that, it’s like, if you’ve never been here, what would you ask about running a Chinese restaurant?
KEEGAN
Yeah, I think it’s really funny. But then I say it’s my mom’s recipes and then people start becoming a little more interested. And they’re like, “That’s amazing! So what type of Chinese food does your mom make?” Like, “Oh was this your mom’s restaurant? You’re taking it over?” Like, no actually this is my restaurant and it’s new and I’m essentially continuing my mom’s legacy of this Chinese food.
But yeah, I’m pretty proud of it. I’m proud of it in the sense that, you know, my kid will be able to be like, “Yeah, my dad owns a Chinese restaurant and it’s my grandma’s food.” Like, that’s super cool. So in a sense, hopefully I’ll start—you know, in the story of our family history, this will be a milestone in it.
*not Bob